Sharing Souls With Donald Jolly, Playwright

THE “DISH”

PG: Just to start us off, Donald…I’m always so curious how people introduce themselves and so let me ask you: What are three words that you would use to describe yourself, as a kind of introduction?

Donald: Yeah, I’m not good at that. Um, I try thinking about it and what I came up with was “quirky, “sensitive” (laughs).

PG: Oooh! okay I did not expect that one! (laughs).

Donald: Um, what was the last one? Oh…ooh. “theatrical” I don’t really like that one though…

PG: (laughs) You don’t like it? You don’t think it describes you?

Donald: (laughs) It’s like a “drama queen” – fine! “Dramatic!”

PG: Dramatic – ooh! I like it! So, thinking back to your childhood, what’s your earliest memory of food that brought you joy? Just by either eating it, or maybe it’s a sensory thing that really brings your back to that really joyful moment around food?

Donald: Okay well, there’s a couple of things. In terms of the earliest, it’s not that exciting. I just remember really really liking white rice. I really wanted my grandfather to cook rice all the time. He’d be like “oh do you want any gravy?” Nope! Just give me the rice. Plain rice. So, this summer more than any other time I really relished eating melons and it reminded me of -. So, my grandfather – my grandparents were from Georgia and every year, just about every year we’d go down to Georgia for our family vacation whatever – See family and stuff. And every time they’d come back, they’d go and pick up a watermelon. And they’d try to get the biggest heaviest watermelon they could get. You know, I’m talking ten pounds, fifteen pounds. That’s a lot of watermelon!

PG: That is a lot of watermelon (laughs).

Donald: And so, it’d get to the point where my grandfather would bring it home and one day he’d be like “Okay! You ready for your watermelon?” And he’d cut it up – and of course the slices were like, you know…this big…bigger than my face. I just remember sticking my whole face into it like, a gross stereotype but it’s true. We would sit there and eat our watermelon…. 

PG: You mentioned your family-Are there any recipes that you feel really represent that family legacy, or anything that was kind of passed down? A recipe that is a family-treasured thing? Even if it’s just the name of the dish?

Donald: I’ll tell you this – my grandmother did not work from recipes and neither did my grandfather and my grandfather did most of the cooking. Except for during the holidays then my grandmother would cook big things. And every year she would cook a giant peach cobbler like…I mean…2 ft by 2ft worth of peach cobbler. And my sister learned the recipe but I never did – I never got into that and my grandmother passed away three years ago. It’ll be three years on Thursday. and I never – and I hadn’t had a peach cobbler in many years, that peach cobbler. So, if I did have a recipe, I’d love to have that. And also, for her macaroni and cheese –

PG: And does your sister know it? Does your sister know how to make it?

Donald: I think so but honestly, I don’t think she’s attempted it since our grandmother passed away. My cousin – my first cousin tried to do it (giggles) and from what I hear it was not. Good. At. All.

PG: (laughs) It did not meet the requirements!

Donald: It did not.  Some people said “oh this is so good” but my sister said it was not good. But I didn’t eat any of it so –

PG: And because we’re eating vegan food I would love it if you wanted to talk a little bit about how you became vegan? And that process and your own personal journey with becoming vegan? Or if this was something you discovered pretty early on in your life?

Donald: Well, not early on. I will say that I did try to become vegetarian when I was around 15. We had just read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair and I was like “I am never eating meat again.” And before that my favorite food was like Salisbury steak and um, chicken and rice. But when I tried to become vegetarian my father would not allow it. My first year in college, my Freshman English teacher was a quaker. And this was like some 50, 60-year-old white woman in New England who was a quaker. She’s also vegan. And this was the first time I heard about veganism. And I’m sure we read some book that mentioned it because those were the things we had to read in her class. So that summer of 2001 I tried vegetarianism, largely because I was staying in an apartment…an internship. I was living in an apartment with some other college students and I had to buy my own groceries and prepare my own food and I did not want to touch the meat. I had no desire to touch the meat. I was only buying like processed frozen chicken and stuff. But I eventually weaned that stuff out and it was really – as corny as this sounds – um it was really around September 11th where it really solidified for me. And I say that’s corny because…so…before that date I was like really trying to study non-violence and trying to figure out what does it mean for me to live a non-violent lifestyle, and experimenting with stuff and reading about Mahatma Gandhi and all that-who was essentially vegan until doctors made him to drink like goat’s milk.

So September 11th I said, you know what I’m gonna make this huge sacrifice and see how long it can go because I really need to explore what it means to me to be “non-violent” and hope to change society in that way because I was really afraid of the U.S. going to war and this being this endless war. So that’s where it started. 

Why do I love Donald beyond measure?

THE ART

PG: I would love to switch gears a little bit because you’re an artist and maybe you could talk a little bit about what kind of art you practice. And I would so love to hear what you’re artistically curious about right now given our circumstances.

Donald: Okay um…well as an artist I guess primarily I’m a playwright. And with that you know, I’ve had three plays produced in L.A. in the past 10 years. 

PG: And what are you curious about right now? I mean, given our circumstances, what is…has anything piqued your artistic curiosity?

Donald: Well, here’s the deal. I love to write about um…You know I want my work to be socially relevant and to say something about the times. But I’ve also realized, early during the summer I was working on some rewrites and I realized, I write about so many depressing things (laughs) and so then I was like “I got to stop doing this.” Right because I remember around May and June when the protests were really popping off, I was taking my play Bonded and adapting it to a screenplay. So, Bonded is set during slavery, about slaves and I said “Okay I don’t…I can’t be in this world right now.” I eventually got over it and went back to those people, the people of the play, because I just adore them and that’s what the play is about for me, those characters. So that being said, right now, I am working on a play about drag. I want to do something a little light – not completely light but a little more light. It started off with thinking about drag performance and gender performance. So, this play is exploring drag and um…it’s a Faustian tale about being the world’s most famous drag queen. So that’s one thing that’s piquing my curiosity. I guess I write a lot about drag queen and um…it’s not funny but I saw a tweet the other day where someone said “I am so over seeing drag queens and vogueing in gay stories and LGBT stories, we’re so much more than that.” And I was offended actually. Because to me, it just sounded like “femmephobia” …. Yes, we see it a lot, RuPaul’s Drag Race is really popular right now, but like there’s maybe two shows on about voguing. It’s just a new sort of thing, even though voguing has been around for the past like 40 years…right?

There’s a history that a lot of people don’t know. So, yea that offended me and I’d like to explore this idea of femmephobia because you know, not just sexism and misogyny…but just the idea of the feminine still as something being seen as weak or unwanted. And during the…. you know Black Lives Matter is an organization right and since then there’s another organization called All Black Lives Matter really focusing on LGBT people because when we think about the plight of people of the QT experience, particularly trans women of color who just have been murdered in these streets repeatedly…like that is another epidemic you know? I do think…I want to celebrate those people. Celebrate femmes and those who identify in such a way. But then also to just humanize people a little more. I’ve also started working on TV pilots, and one of my pilots is about a gay guy and he is unabashedly feminine. Now I know that’s a stereotype but for him…he’s from this neighborhood where he would get beat up and bullied. And he has adopted a stance where “this is who I am and screw you if you don’t like it”. And I find that’s something really empowering you know. It takes bravery to be yourself, to be out and open so…I guess that’s one big thing I’m sort of exploring in my writing right now.

PG: That’s super exciting because your plays have been so deep, like you said in terms of the different subjects. Because like Bonded is not just set in slavery, it’s about the queer experience within slavery and so I think really raking that perspective and adding the humor to this particular subject matter with drag queens or femmephobia. But personally – as someone who’s your friend – I feel like you’re always gonna go underneath the surface of that you know what I mean? So I don’t think this character would ever really be a stereotype or a trope. And it’s really exciting because I do feel like misogyny is such a big issue in our society and our culture, even particularly in the queer culture…particularly in queer, cis male identities, it still is an issue. And we see it a lot in lesbian culture as well but we’re just focusing on like “what is femme? What is masculine?” And then “what’s the nonbinary, androgynous or in-between?” But that allowance is still something I feel people are still negotiating because I do see that some queer folx are putting people into those boxes and if you don’t fit nicely into that box, there’s like cognitive dissonance. 

Donald: Exactly

PG: As an artist, how do you inject, or make time for creativity in your daily practice? Is there a specific tip or ritual that you do that you can share with folx in terms of stoking those artistic curiosities?

Donald: Well, before the pandemic, it was a struggle and I’d go through these waves of being really productive creatively and then not. And then for the last year or so I’d been really focusing on, in the midst of an 8-hour workday, using my lunch hour to write. Or at least a couple of weeks doing that and during my weekends.  And really just having to force myself because for me that was the only space that I had where I felt like…how do I say this?... I was doing something for myself? I was actually pushing my life in the right direction.

I’ve had, since March actually since April, I’ve had so much time to write. If I can’t write: Daydreaming is very important. Like, we get that sort of beat out of us, for lack of a better way to describe it, when we’re younger. You know, “stop daydreaming!” “What are you doing? Stop daydreaming!” You know, we tell kids that all the time. And I think that there’s something really important, almost primordial about day dreaming that is really beneficial for us, whether you are working on a specific creative project or not. So I allow myself time to daydream. I also say, write first thing in the morning, before you look at your phone, before you have a conversation with anybody, particularly if you think you’ve had a dream, write them down.

Another thing that I do to flex that creative muscle is listen to music. Sometimes top 40…just some good songs or jazz to put you in the mood. I read a quote from Suzan-Lori Parks that said “If you haven’t done it once before you die, try dancing while you write. It’s that old world way of getting to the deep shit.” So I dance and it’s not just right before but while I’m writing or whatever I have a playlist, it’s a soundtrack that’s thematically relevant and I just got to dance into it. Because even if I feel like I’m blocked, if I’m there with the music and I’m letting the music move through me something comes up.

PG: I feel like that’s so true. I feel like we always get disconnected from our bodies and so when we physicalize something, I feel like it then gets grounded back into that place. I did this recently this year, I was feeling so overwhelmed with all the racial unrest and I didn’t know what my place was with it. And so I just had a dance party sesh in my room (laughs). And I got clarity around, I don’t know exactly what my role is but I know there’s things I can put in motion that I can be of service to this larger movement of justice. Talking about music, this is a question from my dear friend, Khanisha Foster...She’s a wonderful teaching artist and she would always ask this in groups: If you were to be cracked open, what sound would pour out?

Donald: Okay well…in general, it’s usually a Tina Turner song like a “I Might Have Been Queen.” Today in particular it’s probably Nina Simone “Break Down and Let It All Out.”

PG: I don’t know that song!

Donald: She goes (sings) “break down and let it all out…break down and let it all out!”

PG: I need this song in my life!

Donald: Yes you do! oh! There was another song…”Remember Me” by Diana Ross (sings) “remember me as a good thing, remember me (hums).” My choice in music really dates me, but that’s life now (laughs).

NOM NOM

Donald: Okay so I ordered…”The Saipan Country Steak Plate.”

PG: How is it? What do you like?

Donald: So it’s got mashed potatoes – I love these mashed potatoes – I haven’t had mashed potatoes like these in a long time. I think they were mashed and put in this container just for me. And it’s got country fried steak.

PG: Oooh that’s a nice size!

Donald: Yeah, I’m not gonna eat all that because I learned my lesson once before (laughs) and um, collard greens.

PG: (laughs) And these nachos are out of control. The jalapenos are very hot (laughs) fair warning! And I got a piece of cornbread..Mmm…it’s good. I think it would be better warmed. It’s very….sweet. I wonder what they made it out of...it is sweeter than I had anticipated.

Donald: Oh man, I wish my grandfather had taught me how to make cornbread. Although I think he just used the box, but you know (laughs) I haven’t had good cornbread in a long time.

PG: Oooh I like the cornbread. I think this would be really good warmed up. Like this with some little tea. Maybe that will be my after dinner, aperitif (laughs).

Donald: I love it!

RAPID FIRE

PG: Okay so, rapid fire…Don’t think too hard, first thing that comes out of your mind. A taste I cannot stand:

Donald: oooh…um…celery

PG: A smell that I can’t get enough of:

Donald: oooh….lavender. Lavender - I have this lavender incense that Nathan [my fiancé] doesn’t like. I try to limit it but I really like it (laughs) And this is good incense from Japan – not from the corner store where they cover it in cheap perfume.

PG: My favorite thing to touch-Let’s keep it family friendly (laughs):

Donald: yeah, right! Hello? Excuse me! (laughs) You know, immediately what comes to mind is um…okay so when I was a kid I had these things called Koosh balls. I think they were really big in the 90’s because I haven’t seen them since. But I loved my Koosh ball so much so that I would have different ones. I had a big yellow one, I had a smaller black and purple one, and I would sit in class – picture in days when I would get really anxious, before I knew what anxiety was – but I knew something was bothering me – I would just pull it out and touch it. Now if somebody saw me, they’d be like “oh throw that to me!” and I’d be like no! I don’t want your dirty hands on my Koosh ball!

PG: (laughs) This is mine! A noise or sound that makes you smile:

Donald: I often say, you know the soulful wailing of Tina Turner or you know, any of those divas. Tina Turner or Nina Simone – they don’t even need to say anything. Just “waaaah” you know and immediately...

PG: Starts running through your body?

Donald: Yeah! I know this is very specific but the sound of the overture to The Wiz, when the universal sign shows up in the movie. So, right before the movie starts you know they put the logo “Universal” and they put that (sings) din nun na din nun na – that very first note and everything – it’s just…I love it. Sometimes it’s the very first notes of things. Also, the very first note of…what’s that song?...well… “River Deep Mountain High” and also “It’s All Coming Back to Me Now.” I just hear those first notes and it automatically takes me to a place. Or the sounds to a very crisp nectarine.

I guess specifically me biting into it but I love that sound. I mean, I don’t need to hear the whole chewing – just that first bite, that first crunch.

PG: (laughs) Yeah, and I think the final question-Part of what I’m trying to explore is what wisdom or thoughts or offerings can we give to our community of color, from your own perspective? From the life that you’ve lived and things you’ve had to deal with – what would be your offering, from what you’ve learned along the journey?

Donald: Yeah…this will probably sound corny but I like corny things. One is “you’re stronger than you realize”. You know when you…just to bastardize a quote from Eleanor Roosevelt “every time you look fear in the face and really stick to your guns and overcome an obstacle, that’s how you grow” and I also think that’s where happiness is. So, the hardest thing for people to accept – particularly in our society is – you have everything inside you, that you need to be happy. It’s already there. You were born with it innately. It may be clouded, you may need to dust it off, but it’s there. Happiness does not reside in external things like a job or money or another person. You know, all those things can bring us what we call relative happiness or joy but we know also that that joy kind of fades. But to be absolutely happy - absolutely is being able to deal with what’s right here right now – not trying to escape from it and just charging through and overcoming it. There’s no greater joy than having overcome something that you thought you couldn’t overcome.

PG: I love that, it’s great! Thank you for that offering. I needed to hear that. (laughs)

Donald: It’s true – and most of us are so afraid that we’re not going to try to overcome, or maybe the habit is safer to not try different things. I know it! It happens to me all the time. It just feels safer to not challenge things. But you know, just like some people – having a great workout – it’s just when you’re done, when it’s all over the happiness and the sense of pride that just comes from yourself is something that can’t be measured and I think…we just need to remind each other…just like your tattoo says “I am enough?” You are enough! You have it all there – it’s all inside of you. Now maybe you need to practice a little to flex that happiness muscle or whatever but it’s there and no one can take it away from you and no one can give it to you.

PG: I love that! Yes, people need to hear that. That’s a beautiful offering, so thank you. Well thank you for sharing a meal with me tonight!